Some Bird Laguz Q&A
Jan. 8th, 2013 04:55 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
queenluaI'm posting this because the ravens and the herons have given me canon-confirmation headaches every time I've had to write the little bastards, and I've found myself having to look up the same stuff over and over, so I might as well keep all the info in one place to save me some trouble.
(Yes I'm whining even though I've only done a couple bird laguz fics. Shush.)
Feel free to correct me or comment on my random speculations and whatnot; my knowledge of this stuff is far from encyclopedic, and having all the info and thoughts and such in one place would help me out.
Where all have the herons lived and who have been their caretakers?
Serenes was formed in 470, the Serenes Massacre happened in 625, and the Mad King's War starts in 645.
If we're to believe that Reyson is 97 years old1, then that means he was born after Serenes had been established, but he was already decently old (77) when the massacre occurred.
This would imply that he was safely in the care of Serenes until the massacre, but Naesala suggests differently:
So, Naesala's caretaking of Reyson had to happen before the massacre. But we're given by Reyson in the PoR script that Leanne was an "infant" when the massacre occurred2, so it can't have been too long before the massacre (even if we assume laguz age more slowly than beorc, which seems reasonable given their longer lifespans, I doubt she'd be an infant for more than a couple decades at most).
This is honestly very puzzling, because if Serenes was healthy and thriving, then why on earth would Reyson need watching over by a raven?
Two possible explanations:
(1) Naesala's overstating his role here. Naesala never "watched over" or was anything like a "protector" for Reyson; he was perhaps a good friend or a frequent visitor, but not a guardian.
(2) Serenes and Kilvas were very close allies prior to the massacre—so close that the Serenes royal family felt comfortable having the Kilvan king hang around their kids. I sort of like this idea since it leads to some interesting backstory implications. Serenes, being situated between several nations, had to have been in a pretty precarious position. Their pacifism was well-known; what was to stop any of the beorc surrounding them from coming in and nabbing their land (or a few herons, like they did with Rafiel)? Perhaps Kilvas's characteristic brand of underhanded dealings / bribery / manipulation did well in protecting Serenes's unique position, playing different powers off of each other, right up until the massacre. And when the ravens' clever politicking couldn't prevent that tragedy, Reyson felt betrayed and left for the hawks.
(And of course, there's always option (3), the game creators just didn't think out this stuff too carefully :P )
When did the Blood Pact plague strike Kilvas?
Kilvas was formed in 420 (due to disputes with the bird tribes), surrendered to Begnion in 428, and re-established in 478. It seems reasonable, based on this and what Lekain says, to assume that the blood contract was first made in 478:
As an aside, this does seem to strongly imply (if not absolutely prove) that Naesala's the oldest of the bird kings. We're given that Tibarn's between 110 and 115 (source), and Reyson's 97, but Naesala would need to be at least 115 to have been alive during the blood pact plague (and honestly I'd reckon that he's more like 200—we're told that laguz royals are chosen at least partially based on strength, and for him to "suddenly became first in line to succeed the throne" during the time of the plague in Kilvas, he'd need to be pretty old and fit during the time of the plague—so if he's 200 at the start of PoR, that makes him somewhere between 33 and 115 during the plague).
Who survived the Serenes Massacre?
Lozarieh, Lillia, Rafiel, Reyson, and Leanne are the only survivors we know about, and Lillia sure didn't last long afterward. Lozarieh is alive but I always forget about him—in PoR we're given that he's been bedridden ever since the massacre, and at the end of RD evidently he's pulled out of a coma or something:
(Okay, yes, I'm projecting the general fantasy epic rule of "elves are kind of dicks" here, but I don't think it'd be completely out of left field if the heron royalty, barring perhaps Reyson, were out-of-touch with the common folk and/or concerned with self-preservation.)
How the hell did that united bird kingdom thing work out?
Short answer: we just don't know
Long answer: The end of FE10 seems to imply that they settled into Serenes not just quickly, but almost immediately (when everyone's heading home, Tibarn tells Ike "We'll stop by Gallia, then wing straight on to Serenes"—geez do you guys not have stuff back home you wanna pack up or anything).
This seems dumb in a way that's impossible to reconcile sensibly. The hawks and ravens have hated each other for a good while; even if Tibarn and Reyson are (suddenly and mysteriously) willing to live in peace, conflict between so many hawks and ravens living in close quarters seems inevitable.
If you did want to bother trying to making a "united bird kingdom starts immediately after FE10" scenario work, it's probably worth mentioning that, since the herons have only a handful of members left, and since we're told that the population of the Phoenician mainland was left nigh-decimated after Naesala's betrayal... the Kilvans would make up a considerable majority of the united bird tribes. Interesting.
Anyway I like Ammie's idea way better.
Are there non-sentient forms of the animals the laguz transform into?
Stated more simply: there are people who can turn into herons in Tellius. Are there also regular herons in Tellius, non-sentient birds who never transform? And what about hawks/ravens/wolves/etc?
You could argue either way on this one, since we aren't given much information one way or the other, but I'd prefer to think there are non-sentient animals that resemble the laguz who are hanging around.
Actually writing fic about this in this in the case of herons would get sort of tricky, since IRL herons are badass spear-fishing motherfuckers. Would Tellius regular-herons also be spear-fishing motherfuckers, and the laguz-herons would look on their animal counterparts with a vague sense of disgust? Or would the regular-herons just be berry-eaterseven though the way they've evolved and the way they're shaped makes like zero sense for that this really bugs me okay
But on the whole I think it leads to interesting speculation on how the laguz would regard their animal counterparts, and perhaps have the potential for weird, laguz-specific identity crises. IRL, there are plenty of cultures worldwide that have regarded certain animals as sacred, practiced animal spirit possession, or believed in literal animal transformation. But living in a culture where everyone around you can literally transform into a particular animal, literally become kin with them—it would probably give rise to a radically different mindset towards those animals (and perhaps treatment of animals in general? and maybe sometimes those laguz who transform into regular-sized animals, like wolves and herons and unlike the giant-sized ravens and hawks, run away to live with their non-sentient counterparts? and maybe their myths/stories are different based on ideas regarding these animals?)— I think there's a lot of interesting ground to be played with there.
Random extra gripe
Basically all the canon info we're given for "how Rafiel wound up in Hatari" is that "some force" took hold of him late at night in a temple after the Serenes massacre, and next thing he knew, he was in the middle of the desert. What. Just. What.
1I found this number cited on several wikis, but never was able to pin down a source or figure out where the number came from. It seems reasonable enough so I stuck with it, but I'd love to know the source, if there is one, or if it's just some random number a dude online came up with.
2 Actually this gives the Naesala/Leanne relationship a mildly creepy vibe—last time Naesala saw her, evidently he was playing babysitter for her, and now he's reciprocating her puppy crush? It can still work, but...
(Yes I'm whining even though I've only done a couple bird laguz fics. Shush.)
Feel free to correct me or comment on my random speculations and whatnot; my knowledge of this stuff is far from encyclopedic, and having all the info and thoughts and such in one place would help me out.
Where all have the herons lived and who have been their caretakers?
Serenes was formed in 470, the Serenes Massacre happened in 625, and the Mad King's War starts in 645.
If we're to believe that Reyson is 97 years old1, then that means he was born after Serenes had been established, but he was already decently old (77) when the massacre occurred.
This would imply that he was safely in the care of Serenes until the massacre, but Naesala suggests differently:
Naesala: Oh, I see. So rather than ally yourself with me, your trusted companion of old, you would side with this new protector? That's an unfortunate shift in attitude. I trust you remember that when you and your sister were young, it was I, and not Tibarn, who watched over you?One thought I had was, "Maybe Naesala took care of Reyson right after the massacre, and they had some falling-out which led to Reyson leaving for Tibarn." But Naesala's mention of Leanne here indicates that that can't be the case; Leanne was assumed dead after the massacre.
So, Naesala's caretaking of Reyson had to happen before the massacre. But we're given by Reyson in the PoR script that Leanne was an "infant" when the massacre occurred2, so it can't have been too long before the massacre (even if we assume laguz age more slowly than beorc, which seems reasonable given their longer lifespans, I doubt she'd be an infant for more than a couple decades at most).
This is honestly very puzzling, because if Serenes was healthy and thriving, then why on earth would Reyson need watching over by a raven?
Two possible explanations:
(1) Naesala's overstating his role here. Naesala never "watched over" or was anything like a "protector" for Reyson; he was perhaps a good friend or a frequent visitor, but not a guardian.
(2) Serenes and Kilvas were very close allies prior to the massacre—so close that the Serenes royal family felt comfortable having the Kilvan king hang around their kids. I sort of like this idea since it leads to some interesting backstory implications. Serenes, being situated between several nations, had to have been in a pretty precarious position. Their pacifism was well-known; what was to stop any of the beorc surrounding them from coming in and nabbing their land (or a few herons, like they did with Rafiel)? Perhaps Kilvas's characteristic brand of underhanded dealings / bribery / manipulation did well in protecting Serenes's unique position, playing different powers off of each other, right up until the massacre. And when the ravens' clever politicking couldn't prevent that tragedy, Reyson felt betrayed and left for the hawks.
(And of course, there's always option (3), the game creators just didn't think out this stuff too carefully :P )
When did the Blood Pact plague strike Kilvas?
Kilvas was formed in 420 (due to disputes with the bird tribes), surrendered to Begnion in 428, and re-established in 478. It seems reasonable, based on this and what Lekain says, to assume that the blood contract was first made in 478:
Long ago, a foolhardy king signed a blood pact with the empire to take back his lost kingdom.Also:
He soon broke the terms of the pact and began to disobey the empire."Soon" is vague, but I'd say the king probably started breaking the contract anywhere between "that very year" and "a few decades later"—say, anytime between 478 and 530.
As an aside, this does seem to strongly imply (if not absolutely prove) that Naesala's the oldest of the bird kings. We're given that Tibarn's between 110 and 115 (source), and Reyson's 97, but Naesala would need to be at least 115 to have been alive during the blood pact plague (and honestly I'd reckon that he's more like 200—we're told that laguz royals are chosen at least partially based on strength, and for him to "suddenly became first in line to succeed the throne" during the time of the plague in Kilvas, he'd need to be pretty old and fit during the time of the plague—so if he's 200 at the start of PoR, that makes him somewhere between 33 and 115 during the plague).
Who survived the Serenes Massacre?
Lozarieh, Lillia, Rafiel, Reyson, and Leanne are the only survivors we know about, and Lillia sure didn't last long afterward. Lozarieh is alive but I always forget about him—in PoR we're given that he's been bedridden ever since the massacre, and at the end of RD evidently he's pulled out of a coma or something:
Rafiel preformed a ceremony in Serenes Forest to wake his father, the king. Eventually he returned to Hatari.Interesting implications here: first, it seems that Rafiel is significantly more powerful than either Reyson or Leanne—you'd think if either of them could've woken their father, they would've done it already. Secondly, it's interesting that the royal family, and only the royal family, escaped. Fled fast and left the peasants to die...?
(Okay, yes, I'm projecting the general fantasy epic rule of "elves are kind of dicks" here, but I don't think it'd be completely out of left field if the heron royalty, barring perhaps Reyson, were out-of-touch with the common folk and/or concerned with self-preservation.)
How the hell did that united bird kingdom thing work out?
Short answer: we just don't know
Long answer: The end of FE10 seems to imply that they settled into Serenes not just quickly, but almost immediately (when everyone's heading home, Tibarn tells Ike "We'll stop by Gallia, then wing straight on to Serenes"—geez do you guys not have stuff back home you wanna pack up or anything).
This seems dumb in a way that's impossible to reconcile sensibly. The hawks and ravens have hated each other for a good while; even if Tibarn and Reyson are (suddenly and mysteriously) willing to live in peace, conflict between so many hawks and ravens living in close quarters seems inevitable.
If you did want to bother trying to making a "united bird kingdom starts immediately after FE10" scenario work, it's probably worth mentioning that, since the herons have only a handful of members left, and since we're told that the population of the Phoenician mainland was left nigh-decimated after Naesala's betrayal... the Kilvans would make up a considerable majority of the united bird tribes. Interesting.
Anyway I like Ammie's idea way better.
Are there non-sentient forms of the animals the laguz transform into?
Stated more simply: there are people who can turn into herons in Tellius. Are there also regular herons in Tellius, non-sentient birds who never transform? And what about hawks/ravens/wolves/etc?
You could argue either way on this one, since we aren't given much information one way or the other, but I'd prefer to think there are non-sentient animals that resemble the laguz who are hanging around.
Actually writing fic about this in this in the case of herons would get sort of tricky, since IRL herons are badass spear-fishing motherfuckers. Would Tellius regular-herons also be spear-fishing motherfuckers, and the laguz-herons would look on their animal counterparts with a vague sense of disgust? Or would the regular-herons just be berry-eaters
But on the whole I think it leads to interesting speculation on how the laguz would regard their animal counterparts, and perhaps have the potential for weird, laguz-specific identity crises. IRL, there are plenty of cultures worldwide that have regarded certain animals as sacred, practiced animal spirit possession, or believed in literal animal transformation. But living in a culture where everyone around you can literally transform into a particular animal, literally become kin with them—it would probably give rise to a radically different mindset towards those animals (and perhaps treatment of animals in general? and maybe sometimes those laguz who transform into regular-sized animals, like wolves and herons and unlike the giant-sized ravens and hawks, run away to live with their non-sentient counterparts? and maybe their myths/stories are different based on ideas regarding these animals?)— I think there's a lot of interesting ground to be played with there.
Random extra gripe
Basically all the canon info we're given for "how Rafiel wound up in Hatari" is that "some force" took hold of him late at night in a temple after the Serenes massacre, and next thing he knew, he was in the middle of the desert. What. Just. What.
1I found this number cited on several wikis, but never was able to pin down a source or figure out where the number came from. It seems reasonable enough so I stuck with it, but I'd love to know the source, if there is one, or if it's just some random number a dude online came up with.
2 Actually this gives the Naesala/Leanne relationship a mildly creepy vibe—last time Naesala saw her, evidently he was playing babysitter for her, and now he's reciprocating her puppy crush? It can still work, but...
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Date: 2013-01-08 05:03 pm (UTC)Also, re: my idea, I was confused for a good long moment until I scrolled down to #5, and I was like "oooh, THAT idea." I'd almost forgotten the elegant explanation of the bird tribes that comes off of that. :P
... I should give it its own post someday. And the dragon war thing too.
As for Rafiel being spirited away, I suspect this may have been more palatable as a ~random mystery of the world~ to Japan.
Re: 1 -- I'll keep my eyes open while trawling the FE9 Q&A.
Re: 2 -- Eh. Haar/Jill. *shrug* :P
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Date: 2013-01-08 06:59 pm (UTC)re: "random mystery of the world": perhaps I'm a bit dense, but what in particular would make this more palatable to a Japanese reader? like, is this a more common trope in Japanese storytelling or something?
re: Haar/Jill: that one strikes me as moderately less odd just because Haar wasn't just around for Jill's childhood, but also once she'd gone through puberty and all that—so they had some years there where they could build shared memories and attraction when they were mature and stuff, bla bla bla. whereas when Leanne suddenly pops up, if we're supposed to believe she was an infant when Serenes burned, then basically all the shared memories she and Naesala would have would be like "man remember that time I cried a lot because my teddy bear got a tear in it" "oh what about that time I got mad at you because you made me go to bed early"
that would just be really weird date conversation idk
obviously she's magically aged since then, but if I were Naesala I would definitely have some "uh what" moments there for a while
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Date: 2013-01-08 08:43 pm (UTC)(Incidentally, that one's a very old idea, older than Biblical times.)
Yeah honestly the whole Leanne being saved and magically matured by the forest thing strikes me as pretty bizarre. She doesn't seem all that infantile when you meet her at first, even if you do try to argue that she's rapidly matured after three years with the hawks. (Which, in a kind of weird way, is maybe sorta plausible...)
... Someone should write that fic with Naesala having a certain amount of dissonance about seeing his lovely bride as a toddler.
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Date: 2013-01-08 09:00 pm (UTC)also re: naesala fic: whoever suggests it must write it! or something. gogo ammie *pointed stare* :DDDD;;;
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Date: 2013-01-08 10:33 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-01-09 10:09 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-01-08 05:20 pm (UTC)Secondly, it's interesting that the royal family, and only the royal family, escaped. Fled fast and left the peasants to die...?
Serenes was a decadent kingdom of snobby nobles and nobody peasants. :P
More seriously: it could be that Lorazieh and Reyson were the only ones Tibarn/etc. went in to save. I want to say there was implication that they were rescued (rather than escaping on their own), so maybe they didn't have anything to say about who got out.
re: how the bird tribes work, I could also swear that somewhere it said Lehran was leader of the bird tribes (plural) before the war between the goddesses, so perhaps peace is maintained by putting herons in charge? I can see that happening after the game, certainly, even if I'm wrong about Lehran. The laguz tribes seem to have practically sainted the herons, so I mean.
This is why it's so tempting to write a fic in which Serenes is a classist, snobbish society of vain, fluttery little birds.
I love your last (er, second to last?) point, about laguz tribes and non-sentient animals. I've always wondered, but never thought about how it might affect their culture.
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Date: 2013-01-08 06:41 pm (UTC)!!!!!!
you have no idea how much joy this would bring me
(if you are bribe-able you should tell me what to bribe you with)
I like the idea of heron rulership post-game for keeping order and such, but canon technically contradicts this in the RD epliogue: "Tibarn was chosen as the first king of the unified bird clans, and brought them great respect from the other nations"
...yeah I prefer your idea, much as I love Tibarn
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Date: 2013-01-08 07:05 pm (UTC)But I think I have a thing for ~hot blooded~ characters being forced to do that kind of thing. (see also: everything I do about Ephraim ever)
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Date: 2013-01-09 12:22 am (UTC)during RD rather than post-RD but
yes, I love seeing that kind of thing too :D;;;
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Date: 2013-01-09 04:15 am (UTC)Pfff, Tibarn will eventually die, and Reyson will still be around. That'll solve this problem!
Hm, bribes. Actually, if people keep talking about the bird tribes I probably won't be able to resist at least picking at it. I dropped it last time because it had no direction, but if I see bits of speculation, or questions about how something or other might've happened, it might give ME ideas.
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Date: 2013-01-09 09:12 am (UTC)1) sob don't talk about things like that
2) oooor Nailah dies and Rafiel comes back to Serenes (cue awkward passive-aggressive rulership conflict, assuming Nailah's rubbed off on Rafiel to make him sort of grow a spine; otherwise Reyson continues ruling through sheer force of will)
and if more bird tribe chatter is what it takes, I'll see to it that that's arranged :P
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Date: 2013-01-08 09:00 pm (UTC)Tibarn definitely says that the hawks and ravens were once one, though this is likely referring to their much recent postwar unity under a Hawk ruler.
(Quite true that Tibarn's the leader after the war, though.)
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Date: 2013-01-09 04:11 am (UTC)... maybe. It's been so long since I fired up RD that I don't even remember if you can replay movie clips or cut scenes anymore.
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Date: 2013-01-09 04:49 am (UTC)4-F-5. Just says "of the bird tribes".
The Japanese line doesn't name them at all. (Personally I always thought it sounded more like a 1 on 1.)
http://www2.pegasusknight.com/wiki/fe/index.php?%E3%83%95%E3%82%A1%E3%82%A4%E3%82%A2%E3%83%BC%E3%82%A8%E3%83%A0%E3%83%96%E3%83%AC%E3%83%A0%20%E6%9A%81%E3%81%AE%E5%A5%B3%E7%A5%9E%2F%E7%AB%A0%E5%88%A5%E4%BC%9A%E8%A9%B1%2F%E7%AC%AC4%E9%83%A8%20%E7%B5%82%E7%AB%A0%20%E5%86%8D%E7%94%9F%20Area5
［エルラン］ 女神アスタルテよ。 女神ユンヌは 私の呪歌で眠りにつきました。
私は【解放】の呪歌によって あなた方を目覚めさせることができます。 その場合は……
Irrelevantly, check out the Serenes Massacre flashback at the bottom of this page. "You are kinder than anyone, my Lehran" (Altina) aaahhhhh so cute.
http://www2.pegasusknight.com/wiki/fe/index.php?%E3%83%95%E3%82%A1%E3%82%A4%E3%82%A2%E3%83%BC%E3%82%A8%E3%83%A0%E3%83%96%E3%83%AC%E3%83%A0%20%E6%9A%81%E3%81%AE%E5%A5%B3%E7%A5%9E%2F%E7%AB%A0%E5%88%A5%E4%BC%9A%E8%A9%B1%2F%E7%AC%AC4%E9%83%A8%20%E7%B5%82%E7%AB%A0%20%E5%86%8D%E7%94%9F%20Area4
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Date: 2013-01-09 06:04 am (UTC)(Myaru: perpetuating un-canon since 1999!)
Irrelevantly, check out the Serenes Massacre flashback at the bottom of this page.
That is adorable. ;_; Why didn't I write more tragic nonsense about these two?
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Date: 2013-01-08 06:03 pm (UTC)The only-royals-survived aspect of the herons was always really odd to me. It just seemed so unlikely, I guess, and there's no logical explanation for it. If there was some divine protection over them, it didn't exactly serve Lillia well -- and isn't there something saying there were other siblings too, or am I misremembering that?
I mean, miraculous survivals of only a select few magic royals is standard for FE, but that just seemed like an especially bizarre case to me.
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Date: 2013-01-08 06:46 pm (UTC)And yeah, Reyson had some older sisters who got offed ("My mother, my brother, my elder sisters..."), so certainly the bulk of the royal family got screwed over.
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Date: 2013-01-08 09:14 pm (UTC)That Reyson quote:
リュシオン「…そう言って…私の家族は…民たちは…ただ…死んで逝った。
ニンゲンどもは…狂喜に酔いしれ…笑みさえ浮かべて…殺戮を続けたんだ…母…兄…姉たち…
そして…小さな私の妹リアーネ…、…すべて一夜にして奪われた…
"...What you say is true, but... My family... my people... they just... died and passed. The humans, while drunken with ecstasy, with their expressions only smiling, were able to keep on slaughtering my people. ... Mother... older brother... elder sisters... and even... my tiny little sister, Leanne... they were all snatched away in one night."
From the Japanese RD glossary: Rafiel is the "eldest son," Reyson is the "third son," and Leanne is the "fourth daughter." Since Reyson clearly has more than one older sister alongside Rafiel, I believe that by "third son" they do mean "the third male born to their family." So there are at least seven siblings in this family. Geez.
Given that Reyson doesn't mourn any younger brothers and only mentions Leanne as his younger sister, it's possible that seven is the total count. He doesn't seem to mention multiple older brothers, *but* it's possible that the phrase there is actually (older brother, older sister)-(plural) that is, it's actually "my older brothers... and sisters..."
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Date: 2013-01-09 12:27 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-01-09 02:14 am (UTC)http://fe-according-to-japan.tumblr.com/post/40059840985/serenes-royals
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Date: 2013-01-09 12:42 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-01-09 03:27 pm (UTC)