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queenluaKingdom Hearts 2, when it feels like it, is a nearly-perfect combat system.
The "when it feels like it" is key, there. Most of the time, this game's reputation for "mash X to win / hit Triangle to win" is well-deserved. Most battles are mob encounters; the pace of most battles is relaxed enough that you can whip out any number of slow-yet-overpowered finishers (summons, limits, etc) to bail you out of a tight spot; most of the time you're playing in a chilled-out just-here-to-bash-some-baddies state.
But.
Last night I played the Roxas fight, and it was so, so satisfyingly tense. Reading your opponent's moves, the split-second timing for your blocks/relects, oh-so-careful positioning, carving out a heart-pounding second between volleys to dare a desperately-needed heal attempt, and of course, lunging the second there was an opening—every single thing I did mattered. It was exhilarating. It took me like two hours and I was smiling and screaming and my heart was pounding the whole time.
I'm told that Dark Souls combat feels a bit like this. But, god, KH2 nails the aesthetic on top of all that. Part of the reason I've never gotten around to trying Dark Souls is how blah-generic-brown-and-gray the palette is, and how lumbering-slow-uncool the combat looks. Whereas, during the Roxas encounter, I felt every bit like I was in an anime battle—everything was flashy, colorful, quickquickquick, one false move and you're dead, kid. Bird Guy started watching, entranced, drawn in by the panache; Nomura's aesthetics are a mess much of the time, but goddamn, the dude understands how much they matter.
The Xaldin boss fight was another standout—moreso than I remember when I played the game as a kid. I love how the enemies throughout the dungeon teach you how you're going to fight Xaldin, oh-so-subtly, with that "Learn" mechanic; I loved how punishing yet entirely learn-able Xaldin's attacks were; and I loved the win-more aspect of, once you get good at executing Learns, you don't get just one counterattack on Xaldin—you get, like, six. Returning fire on Xaldin with a whole storm of spears, after pulling off some REALLY tight timing, is such a thrill.
The trouble, of course, is that KH2 has a billionty combat subsystems, and while the Roxas & Xaldin battles bring out the best of them, my limited experienced with KH3 tells me that Nomura & co were interested in... the systems I'm not interested in. The first few hours of that game were such a mess of mobs and confusing hit-Triangle-to-execute-extravagant-dumb-OP-theme-park-ride and such that I couldn't really enjoy iteven with a lot of beer. Nothing was precise; nothing commanded my attention.
And even Kingdom Hearts 2 is not interested the systems I'm interested in, most of the time. All the interesting bosses are in the last half of the game; incidentally, that's where all the interesting aesthetics are (I'm not really one for the Disney-themed stuff, sorry guys).
But I'm in the market for any games that do have this kind of feel, fwiw.
This is very similar to the feeling I had after playing Final Fantasy XIII, actually—in that game's case, it was, "this combat system is amazing, but the difficulty is too easy, and thus doesn't really push you to really immerse yourself in it"—but there's definitely no game I know of with a combat system like that, which is a crying shame. Basically, if someone made me KH2-but-it's-just-Roxas-style-fights, and also FFXIII-but-everything's-twice-as-hard, those would be my two perfect games. Things to fund if I am ever an eccentric billionaire, etc
The "when it feels like it" is key, there. Most of the time, this game's reputation for "mash X to win / hit Triangle to win" is well-deserved. Most battles are mob encounters; the pace of most battles is relaxed enough that you can whip out any number of slow-yet-overpowered finishers (summons, limits, etc) to bail you out of a tight spot; most of the time you're playing in a chilled-out just-here-to-bash-some-baddies state.
But.
Last night I played the Roxas fight, and it was so, so satisfyingly tense. Reading your opponent's moves, the split-second timing for your blocks/relects, oh-so-careful positioning, carving out a heart-pounding second between volleys to dare a desperately-needed heal attempt, and of course, lunging the second there was an opening—every single thing I did mattered. It was exhilarating. It took me like two hours and I was smiling and screaming and my heart was pounding the whole time.
I'm told that Dark Souls combat feels a bit like this. But, god, KH2 nails the aesthetic on top of all that. Part of the reason I've never gotten around to trying Dark Souls is how blah-generic-brown-and-gray the palette is, and how lumbering-slow-uncool the combat looks. Whereas, during the Roxas encounter, I felt every bit like I was in an anime battle—everything was flashy, colorful, quickquickquick, one false move and you're dead, kid. Bird Guy started watching, entranced, drawn in by the panache; Nomura's aesthetics are a mess much of the time, but goddamn, the dude understands how much they matter.
The Xaldin boss fight was another standout—moreso than I remember when I played the game as a kid. I love how the enemies throughout the dungeon teach you how you're going to fight Xaldin, oh-so-subtly, with that "Learn" mechanic; I loved how punishing yet entirely learn-able Xaldin's attacks were; and I loved the win-more aspect of, once you get good at executing Learns, you don't get just one counterattack on Xaldin—you get, like, six. Returning fire on Xaldin with a whole storm of spears, after pulling off some REALLY tight timing, is such a thrill.
The trouble, of course, is that KH2 has a billionty combat subsystems, and while the Roxas & Xaldin battles bring out the best of them, my limited experienced with KH3 tells me that Nomura & co were interested in... the systems I'm not interested in. The first few hours of that game were such a mess of mobs and confusing hit-Triangle-to-execute-extravagant-dumb-OP-theme-park-ride and such that I couldn't really enjoy it
And even Kingdom Hearts 2 is not interested the systems I'm interested in, most of the time. All the interesting bosses are in the last half of the game; incidentally, that's where all the interesting aesthetics are (I'm not really one for the Disney-themed stuff, sorry guys).
But I'm in the market for any games that do have this kind of feel, fwiw.
This is very similar to the feeling I had after playing Final Fantasy XIII, actually—in that game's case, it was, "this combat system is amazing, but the difficulty is too easy, and thus doesn't really push you to really immerse yourself in it"—but there's definitely no game I know of with a combat system like that, which is a crying shame. Basically, if someone made me KH2-but-it's-just-Roxas-style-fights, and also FFXIII-but-everything's-twice-as-hard, those would be my two perfect games. Things to fund if I am ever an eccentric billionaire, etc
no subject
Date: 2020-12-08 12:14 am (UTC)my dumbass self hasn't even played any of those games but it's vaguely recommending nier; automata based off of the anime vibes? and i guess it's a adventure/fighting game? like, spiritually, it feels at least in the same genre of fighting, and the plot isn't boring.
no subject
Date: 2020-12-08 01:57 am (UTC)(the gameplay, surprisingly, was more bullet-hell-y (which is deffo not my genre) than actual dueling/combat, from what i recall? admittedly i gave it a very short try, maybe i'll poke it again someday, etc)
(also, a++ icon lol)
games heck yeah!
Date: 2020-12-08 07:01 am (UTC)Part of the reason I've never gotten around to trying Dark Souls is how blah-generic-brown-and-gray the palette is, and how lumbering-slow-uncool the combat looks.
omgggg would just like to say that it looks slow, but it makes up for it with how heavy and deliberate every single blow/attack is!! :p every move counts and must be deliberately calculated or else!! /says someone who has thoroughly suffered through the Souls Game™ experience ahaaaaaghghghg
not sure how much you enjoy the FFXIII series, but the combat system in Lightning Returns is a real thrill to play. it really is the perfect balance of everything the XIII series was trying to achieve early on with paradigms and i really recommend it alone for that!
also re: the Nier: Automata convo above, it is definitely more hack-and-slash than bullet hell in totality. there are several parts in game where bullet hell is a thing (especially the intro) but they're brief. 9S's play-style incorporates bullet hell mechanics into a puzzle-style shooter (?!), so his part of the game may not be very enjoyable; it does become a real thrill to learn how to navigate, but if it's not your cup of tea hack-and-slash is optional/buildable for him (but not as satisfying/hard-hitting imo).
Re: games heck yeah!
Date: 2020-12-08 07:58 am (UTC)!!! for some reason i keep FORGETTING that ffxiii is a whole series and not just the one game! i'll be taking a look at Lightning Returns for sure :o
9S's play-style incorporates bullet hell mechanics into a puzzle-style shooter (?!)
...okay, i may have to peek at Nier again just to see how this works, lol. i do have a weakness for goofy gameplay hybrids... :P
no subject
Date: 2020-12-09 08:18 pm (UTC)There are things I really like about KH and sometimes the combat is one of them, but I am not as good at it as you are XD
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Date: 2020-12-09 08:58 pm (UTC)there was a sidebar i ended up not including in the post, because it was kind of irrelevant to my main point, but—i do think the game designers made the correct choice in making KH2's combat easier/accessible most of the time. like, the difficulty of that Roxas battle, much as i liked it, was like hitting a WALL—there's a reason it wasn't in the o.g. version of the game, and only on the hardcore-fans-shiny-final-remixed edition!
because while the combat is neat, the bigger point in Kingdom Hearts is "having fun exploring cool new worlds," and you can tell that from just how much effort is put into every little detail of the assets (they customize the bottom-left-hand menu per world??? how many artist-years did this game TAKE). like, most of my friends who played this game with me when i was younger were NOT hardcore gamers, and i was playing it mostly as a social thing; having them all hit a total WALL would've ruined the fun for everyone.
i know this version of KH2 has a bunch more bosses as optional side battle things, which seems pretty ideal—definitely gonna check them out postgame, etc
no subject
Date: 2020-12-09 10:38 pm (UTC)I definitely hit a *few* of those points when I played KH2; granted, I'm a fucking dumbass who was playing it on Proud mode because I wanted the cookie at the end and hadn't quite made the mental connection that I could just YouTube it--I remember literally crying over Xaldin and Demyx. (Your comment also explains why in my mental listing of "ways KH2 made me cry", "Roxas battle" wasn't on it - I haven't played the remix yet.)
I really loved visiting new worlds in KH and how much effort went into making them all visually distinct while also being really colorful and visually appealing.
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Date: 2020-12-09 11:08 pm (UTC)and omg. proud mode on the first runthrough? you're bolder than me; i ABSOLUTELY just did normal difficulty the first time :P
no subject
Date: 2020-12-10 06:53 pm (UTC)but goddamn did I hate everything about getting through it, lol